tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post3738388485611792672..comments2023-10-05T06:20:40.173-04:00Comments on Quaker Pagan Reflections: Turning Our Backs on Jesus: A Humble RequestCat C-B (and/or Peter B)http://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-8273171944659361592010-03-14T15:40:21.285-04:002010-03-14T15:40:21.285-04:00Ashley-Bunny, it has been long enough since I wrot...Ashley-Bunny, it has been long enough since I wrote this post that I can't be sure if I expressed myself carelessly, or if you read me without enough care, but I was in no way trying to say that anyone should fail to draw attention to wrongs and harms still being done in the name or Christianity--nor that our personal stories, for those of us who have them, of being shouldered aside or even abused in the name of that religion don't matter or shouldn't be told.<br /><br />No, the point I was trying to make is that we should have <i>more</i> to say than complaints about Christianity.<br /><br />I am not a Christian. I have never been one. I do not believe I ever will be. And so, by and large, Christianity is an irrelevancy in my life. I turn to writing from the Pagan community for what <i>is</i> relevant to me: discussions of Pagan life, Pagan experience, Pagan thought. On Pagan subjects.<br /><br />When I say we should turn our backs on Christianity, I do not mean we should be silent when marginalized. But just as when woman and blacks began to meet and discuss their commonalities beyond their experience of men and whites, I hope that one day Pagans discussing our lives together will find interesting things to say about ourselves, that would continue to hold our attention and spark our energies if the last Christian on the planet were to relocate to Mars, or to convert whole-heartedly to some other creed.<br /><br />I want a Pagan-centered Paganism; and that, to me, means a Paganism with better things to talk about than Fred Phelps or Medieval witch hunts. Let's acknowledge those painful chapters in our experience, sure... but then... <b>move on.</b>Cat C-B (and/or Peter B)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-53488768806210606012010-02-12T09:34:29.236-05:002010-02-12T09:34:29.236-05:00I'm also rather bored of hearing about him. Ch...I'm also rather bored of hearing about him. Christianity has no place in my life, I'm Pagan and devote my time to that which I believe in or other Pagan areas that may broaden my learning and understanding. I left any thoughts of Christianity behind years ago, I studied but was never a Christian.<br />In my opinion also, yes my opinion so please do not bother flaming me, Christianity cannot be mixed in with Paganism.<br />Now each to their own, but those of feel they must approach me to draw me into a debate or simply tell me I'm wrong or evil (not here I'm talking in life generally) just leave me be...as I leave you be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-30464218399324089372010-02-12T09:32:34.024-05:002010-02-12T09:32:34.024-05:00No one faith is the enemy; the enemy is intoleranc...No one faith is the enemy; the enemy is intolerance & prejudice. I'm glad to see more here like me, somewhat spiritually 'no logo'!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-65101516303618450602010-01-19T19:44:37.161-05:002010-01-19T19:44:37.161-05:00sarenth, in my opinion, if someone can't be ci...sarenth, in my opinion, if someone can't be civil, then they have nothing to say.<br /><br />Certainly people that can't figure out how to be civil have nothing to say to me. I turn the volume down to zero and go about my business.<br /><br />Verbal vitriol is a form of aggression and bullying no different from throwing rocks at some other kid in the schoolyard. You don't learn anything or teach anything doing it.<br /><br />Thanks for the insight.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-62171486224529728332010-01-19T12:32:54.844-05:002010-01-19T12:32:54.844-05:00When I first became Pagan those around me made it ...When I first became Pagan those around me made it easy (ala encouragement) to bash Christians. It felt good; I felt misunderstood, and having known that my folks were talking to an exorcist for me, I was greatly hurt and angry.<br /><br />I got over the anger. I realized, after a time, that my bashing their faith diminished the prominence of my own in my life and cast a poor shadow on Paganism. I then concentrated on my own budding beliefs, and have increased in understanding since.<br /><br />That said, understanding Christianity, examining it and its many, many doctrines with care and debating these can be quite helpful, informative, and connecting. I have read several Bibles over the course of my life, have gotten into the meaty issues of Biblical lore and have done my own share of homework; all I ask is that if you <i>are</i> going to preach the word of God to me, you would do the same courtesy for me.<br /><br />This courtesy I extend to other Christians doesn't mean I am <i>soft</i> on issues of political import, such as abortion or gay marriage, it means that I value, and work to understand their spiritual experiences and beliefs within their scope of understanding and experience without injecting vitriol and needless pain into the conversation. I can disagree, vehemently, with Christians and Pagans alike, but I can do so in a manner that is civil, even in anger.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-28778603356221885842010-01-14T21:55:16.462-05:002010-01-14T21:55:16.462-05:00Thanks for posting your thoughts. I was raised Chr...Thanks for posting your thoughts. I was raised Christian, my father is still a minister. I can't honestly say that I don't have my knee-jerk reactions when other Gods are mentioned but I can say that I respect and receive conversation from those open enough to understand that we are all, the ones entering into this conversation, seekers of truth and knowledge. I will always honor the thoughts and opinions of those who come to me with a mutual reciprocity and, even if they don't, I try to understand why that is in hopes of having them see that there can be disagreement without separation and hatred. So, thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to see that there are many on all sides of the eternal argument that are dwelling in love to find answers:)aprilhttp://www.32many.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-19362802892693592612010-01-13T19:20:31.011-05:002010-01-13T19:20:31.011-05:00I think that Christian-bashing is sometimes part o...I think that Christian-bashing is sometimes part of identity development for new Pagans--a way to conclusively move from "them" to "us". As a post-Christian witch, I honor other deities but don't worship them, and I think Jesus is fine with that. I have been a witch for 23 years and don't spend much time thinking about Christians unless they're explaining why I shouldn't get married.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-13354609072726463542010-01-13T12:02:43.681-05:002010-01-13T12:02:43.681-05:00Amen!
I think part of how this happens has to d...Amen! <br /><br />I think part of how this happens has to do with mythology. The myth of the fall is an important once in some streams of Paganism too: once, things were good and we all lived in harmony with nature/God/the gods, then something bad happened and it fostered all the bad in the world.<br /><br />In Christianity, of course, there's that whole thing with the apple. For Pagans, however, I think the evil that is fostered is often named "disconnection" -- from ourselves, our bodies, the planet, the sacred -- and the rise of Christianity is often pointed to as the culprit.<br /><br />What I'm not clear on is whether we need this myth to understand how things got so messed up and how we can heal them. Are there other stories we could tell instead?Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00861890008423766563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-67143301029418454132010-01-12T03:42:06.277-05:002010-01-12T03:42:06.277-05:00I get what you're saying. As someone who wasn&...I get what you're saying. As someone who wasn't raised in any particular religion (and thus found it easy to slide into Paganism when I was a teenager) I have often been bewildered and annoyed by the amount of needless, apropos-of-nothing Christian-bashing that goes on in Pagan circles.<br /><br />Your distinction between "ex-Christian" and "post-Christian" is one I've not heard before, but which makes total sense...perhaps if more of us understood the distinction there'd be less bashing all around.<br /><br />As always, an insightful post. Thanks for saying what I believe many of us have been thinking all along.Elizabethhttp://twilightandfire.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-35956847397928657422010-01-11T22:50:13.485-05:002010-01-11T22:50:13.485-05:00Growing up LDS and now as a Pagan it has always am...Growing up LDS and now as a Pagan it has always amazed me how some people define their own spiritual devotion by how vociferously they criticize the religion of others. <br /><br />Imagine if the only sweet nothings you ever whispered in your lover's ear were how thoroughly and completely unlike your old lover they were. I can bet that ear would not bend to you for long. So it is, I suppose with any deity or deities with whom you have a spiritual intimacy and whose mighty ears you pray always bend to your spiritual sweet nothings.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17270642198672901054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-75971305657405448802010-01-08T14:23:09.851-05:002010-01-08T14:23:09.851-05:00Very Well Said!!!!Very Well Said!!!!Br. Paxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07961438063935457615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-45809618536414634152010-01-05T18:38:25.698-05:002010-01-05T18:38:25.698-05:00It is actually my job to criticize Christianity. ...It is actually my job to criticize Christianity. Really. I do differentiate between intellectual criticism and analysis and emotional attack. I believe that it is important for people to continue to digest, deconstruct, and discuss the religious traditions that affect our lives together as people. Because Neo-Paganism is so deeply influenced by Christian histories, we must continue to engage in discourse on that front. That said, I share Cat's annoyance with those who criticize what they do not begin to understand. I'm weary of blanket statements of condemnation issues as though Christianity could possibly be summed up by one person's limited experience. Christian history is vast and diverse. Every time someone speaks of Christians as a monolithic group, they insult millions of believers, many of of whom are responsible for a number of the best and most ethical thought humanity has produced. No. You can't generalize Christians or Christianity. That's just sloppy methodology. I've heard and read all manner of nonsense about Christianity from Christians and Pagans alike. When one criticizes a religion, philosophy, or powerful concepts of any kind, it is helpful to use one's brain. Research. Study. Check your sources. Don't speak from the gut and don't talk out of your ass.Hysteryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02044678910937934731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-41553406895574566222010-01-04T21:09:04.780-05:002010-01-04T21:09:04.780-05:00David--FWIW, I think your point was a good one.
I...David--FWIW, I think your point was a good one.<br /><br />I also think I overlooked it in my post for two very good reasons:<br /><br />1) I was (admittedly) ranting. So exceptions to my somewhat hyperbolic rule (Pagans ought to shut up about Christianity already) were not foremost in my mind...<br /><br />And:<br />2) I am much more interested in reading about religious and spiritual experiences than politics. There are a lot of political blogs written by Pagans; I find them about as dull as political blogs written by non-Pagans. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with a political blog, or with blogging on political subjects, it's just that I, personally, find the topic uninspiring.<br /><br />And, of course, one of the reasons I love your blog is that you do an exceptionally good job writing about a subject I find as fascinating as it is hard to capture in words: the spiritual experience itself. Which is not to say you aren't entitled to political critiques from time to time, if they are what you feel passionate about writing.<br /><br />Incidentally, it hasn't escaped me that there's some irony in the fact that one of the liveliest comment threads in a long time is over a rant about, if not Christianity, about rants about Christianity at any rate.<br /><br />Thereby proving the rule: put three Pagans in a room together, and within fifteen minutes, we'll be talking about...Christianity.<br /><br />*sigh!*Cat C-B (and/or Peter B)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-64573696142177874342010-01-04T19:47:17.438-05:002010-01-04T19:47:17.438-05:00Hm.
I'm hearing a lot of "I agree, Cat,&...Hm.<br /><br />I'm hearing a lot of "I agree, Cat," but I'm not certain that everyone who is agreeing with me is hearing what I'm actually saying.<br /><br />I would never say that Quakers aren't Christians, for instance! Though some of us, in the liberal branch, are not (yours truly included), the vast majority of the world's Quakers absolutely ARE. What I find difficult is that Pagans, nominally outside of Christianity, sometimes act as the Christian thought-police, and maintain quite stubbornly that Quakers as a group are not Christians... because Quaker Christians don't behave in the ways that Pagans believe all Christians stereotypically do.<br /><br />There's just something wrong with a self-identified Christian having to prove their Christian identity to a non-Christian!<br /><br />Yes, there are obnoxious Christians, and as our culture is (again, at least <i>nominally</i> Christian--though I suspect Kevin could tell us several ways it falls short of what he and a good many other Christians term good Christian standards) Christian, those of us who aren't Christian are going to bump up against them.<br /><br />With the sole exception of bumping back against political activism that is pig-headed and bigotted (whether a product of Christians or anyone else) I don't see a lot to be gained kvetching about that, however.<br /><br />I regularly encounter obnoxious people in tech support, for instance. But I don't feel the need to make complaining about them the centerpiece of my spiritual writing!<br /><br />So this post is not a form of Christian-bashing, cleverly disguised. I want us Pagans to focus more on our own religion--not as defined by what we are not, but by what we are.<br /><br />Take the challenge! Go a year--hell, go a month!--writing about Paganism from a <i>Pagan</i> point of view, everyone. See what we can say about ourselves without needing to use Jesus, or his followers, as a yardstick.<br /><br />As I recall, for most of us at least, he's not a regular feature of our religion.Cat C-B (and/or Peter B)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-579543669765625462010-01-04T19:25:53.384-05:002010-01-04T19:25:53.384-05:00I'm in full agreement with you, let's have...I'm in full agreement with you, let's have a Jesus Free Year.<br /><br />Like Pitch313, I have never been a Christian, nor were my parents. They were Romany and Wiccan.<br /><br />I don't actually believe that Jesus existed, no more than Robin Hood or Santa Claus. These were characters dreamed up by an oppressed people to give them a "feel good" factor when then were dominated by powerful people.<br /><br />I do accept the Quaker way of life. They do have the right attitude to life and people, but my gods are in nature and our relationship with the earth.<br /><br />That was a good post, and I agree with it 100%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-64421267028068406772010-01-04T19:05:30.642-05:002010-01-04T19:05:30.642-05:00Hear, hear!
Thank you for this post, Cat!Hear, hear!<br /><br />Thank you for this post, Cat!Sterghehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15123286458884762394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-23086922654265559682010-01-04T18:14:01.865-05:002010-01-04T18:14:01.865-05:00Sorry you're feeling the feedback from the fac...Sorry you're feeling the feedback from the fact we can't turn around w/out Jesus being shoved up our noses etc.<br /><br />So he'd kinda hard to ignore. <br /><br />I know you don't "shove". So....in fairness it shouldn't be done to you. But Jesus-loving folks just won't let us be. So, you're getting that reaction.<br /><br />And, of course, it isn't really Jesus himself anyway but the Church that's the issue. It's just that for short-hand, folks say "Jesus". (which sure must give him a headache!)<br /><br />Not that you needed an explanation.........Helen/Hawknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-48304001765030624282010-01-04T16:58:15.834-05:002010-01-04T16:58:15.834-05:00Yo Pitch-
I'm a Quaker. I'm a Christian, ...Yo Pitch-<br /><br />I'm a Quaker. I'm a Christian, too. I have no problem with "sin" or "salvation," as they were originally defined within Quakerism, which isn't always how they are defined by non-Quaker Christians. The original message of primitive Quakerism is that 1600 years of Christian church faith and practice got it wrong. It still looks that way to me.<br /><br />"Joking Jesus" is much better than "Plastic Jesus," by the way:<br /><br />I'm the queerest young fellow that ever was heard. <br />My mother's a Jew; my father's a Bird <br />With Joseph the Joiner I cannot agree <br />So 'Here's to Disciples and Calvary.' <br />. . .<br />Goodbye, now, goodbye, you are sure to be fed <br />You will come on My Grave when I rise from the Dead <br />What's bred in the bone cannot fail me to fly <br />And Olivet's breezy—Goodbye now Goodbye. <br /><br />Razzam.kevin robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07336902422644197456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-82139600357621815422010-01-04T13:20:04.540-05:002010-01-04T13:20:04.540-05:00I am a Pagan who is not and has never been a Chris...I am a Pagan who is not and has never been a Christian of any sort. <br /><br />But I've found that it's nearly impossible--in a country dominated by the legion of "Christian" subcultures--to talk about religion and spirituality without getting tangled up in some thread of Christianity. <br /><br />For instance, I assert that Paganism is different from Christianity. And I follow a practice that keeps it different. Still, I've learned that Christians themselves have undertaken steps to get rid of many of the differences that I pay attention to. So there are, for instance, postmodern Christians who have pretty much tossed notions like "sin" and "salvation" away. <br /><br />They strike me as quite Pagan, as I embrace it, but they still self-identify as "Christians." <br /><br />And there you go, saying Quakers aren't Christians, really. Maybe they're not, but lots appear to hold to that identity. <br /><br />What I'm getting at, I guess, is that in the realm of thinking and disourse (even the blogosphere), Christianity is the cultural backdrop for all of us who chat and blather and rhapsodize and rant and get drenched by that ecstatic inspiration of our meta-pantheons. <br /><br />Why, just today, over at A Letter From Hardscrabble Creek, there's a lillte mention of "Pagan clergy" and those who look forward to full-time salaried Pagan clergy. Is this an idea that arose from a small circle of skyclad dancers skipping around a fire in a forest? I think not. It's a Christian model. I suspect that we American Pagans have no other.<br /><br />Besides, I will not give up singing "Plastic Jesus."Pitch313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-16322827410246101432010-01-04T12:42:31.006-05:002010-01-04T12:42:31.006-05:00Well said, Cat! I've been saying this for a f...Well said, Cat! I've been saying this for a few years, myself.<br /><br />I also like the following statement from your comment to Macha:<br /><br /><i>I think I am more annoyed by Pagan bigotry than by Christian bigotry these days because, well, if I have a prophetic mission, it's not to the Christians. It is my own people I'd like to witness to, and my own culture I'd like to change.</i><br /><br />That's exactly how I see it. Now that I'm a Pagan, it's my primary duty to address the problems in the Pagan community. I'll leave the problems in the Christian communities to the Christians. Granted, I might discuss them with friends who are Christians, especially if we have a relationship that allows that. But beyond that, oh well.<br /><br />In response to dmiley, I'll also note that while Christian-rationalized homophobia is a concern to me, that still doesn't make it my job to deconstruct or rant against Christian theology, even the Christian theology that is used to rationalize homophobia. My job is simply to point out the homophobia, negative effects it has on gay people and society at large, and why that's unacceptable. I'll let the Christian theologians worry about the theology itself.Jarredhttp://musings.northerngrove.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-23347031568880414872010-01-04T12:15:54.689-05:002010-01-04T12:15:54.689-05:00@dmiley: Speaking out against specific abuses like...@dmiley: Speaking out against specific abuses like opposition to gay marriage is not to deride the whole of Christianity, but only one section of it. I would also hope that people would write about this from an informed perspective (e.g. starting from a specific news article).<br /><br />That said, should we not also address homophobia within Paganism? (It does exist.)Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-58033368059717664002010-01-04T09:44:06.154-05:002010-01-04T09:44:06.154-05:00I'm so with you on this -- looking out from Af...I'm so with you on this -- looking out from AfricaMaryahttp://louisey.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-45827779803291058522010-01-04T08:45:37.935-05:002010-01-04T08:45:37.935-05:00Oh I so agree with you, and applaud your having th...Oh I so agree with you, and applaud your having the guts to speak up. I'm constantly appalled by the self-professed Pagans who go on and on about how they embraced Paganism because of its open-mindedness, the fact that it doesn't try to say other religions are wrong, its willing acceptance of ALL peoples - yet at the same time - are spending all their time whining and crying about how Christianity isn't those things, showing their true hypocrisy. They brought the very same ideals they hoped to escape from dogmatic Christianity, and are living them in Paganism. People like that, were part of the problem, and need to look more at how THEY act. Operating under a differently named faith does not change the spiritual PRACTICE.Ryan Suttonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04944307836865627332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-82793724388694565272010-01-04T06:14:45.894-05:002010-01-04T06:14:45.894-05:00I don't think I'm a Jesus or Christian bas...I don't think I'm a Jesus or Christian basher and yet I want to argue with your post. First, Christianity is the dominant religion in this country. As such, it has a political reach that in some cases causes oppression. I'm thinking gay marriage and abortion and then stupid stuff like abstinence-only sex education. The complete list is not short. Speaking out against political right-wing Christianity when it is clothed in the robes of self righteousness is entirely fair. Arguably, Jesus has little to do with political Christianity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-5221875391007167952010-01-03T21:07:24.030-05:002010-01-03T21:07:24.030-05:00As a potentially hyphenated Pagan on her own conti...As a potentially hyphenated Pagan on her own continuing (and oft-times personally baffling) quest with Christianity, and who recently had an exchange IRL with a representative of the type of individual to whom I imagine this post is speaking, alls I can say is: Amen. Amen. Amen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com