tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post3962007515393441461..comments2023-10-05T06:20:40.173-04:00Comments on Quaker Pagan Reflections: Duality and BeyondCat C-B (and/or Peter B)http://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-50387398066969848222008-05-02T07:00:00.000-04:002008-05-02T07:00:00.000-04:00Hi ... I am dropping by to leave a link to my arti...Hi ... I am dropping by to leave a link to my article on duality, too. It was a fun exercise. I really enjoyed your post. I liked the one about 9/11, too. Very thought provoking. What a day that was, hm? I was in San Francisco at the time and at first thought I was seeing a moving on television. It was so surreal, the split screen and everything.<BR/><BR/>http://whenisisrises.blogspot.com/2008/05/archetypes-part-2-archetypes-in-duality.html<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>D~Donna L. Faberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07699900003668551896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-18017051763339650142008-04-28T15:42:00.000-04:002008-04-28T15:42:00.000-04:00Great post, Cat. Duality is one thing I've been ex...Great post, Cat. Duality is one thing I've been examining (in fits and starts) in my spiritual practices. Part of me wants to ditch it completely but I hear your message that it does have some things to teach us. As you said, just don't take it so literally. I might substitute "seriously" in there. I've been way too serious lately, and I think it's time to awaken my lighter side again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-16271284056932156492008-04-28T09:21:00.000-04:002008-04-28T09:21:00.000-04:00"Let's keep them away from the Tree of Life, while...<EM>"Let's keep them away from the Tree of Life, while they are suffering under this illusion. We don't want them to become immortal in such a screwed up condition. Keep them out until I can figure out how to fix the mess they've made."</EM><BR/><BR/>yes, that is the position of the Orthodox Church - which was not taken in by St Augustine's doctrine of original sin, influenced as he was by Manichaeism.Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-66682875031214103392008-04-28T09:08:00.000-04:002008-04-28T09:08:00.000-04:00PS - you might also enjoy some of the articles lin...PS - you might also enjoy some of the articles linked from <A HREF="http://pagantheologies.pbwiki.com/Gender" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-78097074573681205672008-04-28T09:03:00.000-04:002008-04-28T09:03:00.000-04:00I love this post - some fascinating comments too.I...I love this post - some fascinating comments too.<BR/><BR/>I don't think you are handling a monotheist snake, but rather a monist one. Different ball-game entirely.<BR/><BR/>I totally agree that polarity is much more than just male-female interaction.Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-88492190959710305232008-04-26T17:31:00.000-04:002008-04-26T17:31:00.000-04:00Dear Cat,This is beautiful. Here's what I value m...Dear Cat,<BR/><BR/>This is beautiful. Here's what I value most:<BR/><BR/>"Where we go wrong is in defining the most basic representation of difference--duality--as the limit of difference....<BR/><BR/>"It is difference, not opposition, that creates complements....<BR/><BR/>"The problem, in other words, isn't with dualism, but with literalism--with being unable to see the fullness of what dualism is the simplest form to represent: diversity coming together to shape wholeness."<BR/><BR/>This leads me, in turn, to want to address David's concern about "G-d versus Satan" and his references to "the Serpent and Eve."<BR/><BR/>These are both fossils of pre-Old Testament Middle Eastern mythic complexes. Both were grotesquely distorted by the patriarchal writers of the the OT, and then distorted even more during the early centuries of ideological Christianity.<BR/><BR/>In the earlier forms, the figure who became known as Satan was "the Adversary." Not an enemy of YHWH but a member YHWH's court, with a specific role as a tester of YHWH's efforts in Creation.<BR/><BR/>In other words, our modern expression "playing Devil's advocate" is actually a weird twist on the original lore. <BR/><BR/>Satan's assignment from YHWH was precisely to play "Devil's advocate." For the sake of assessing the integrity of the working out if YHWH's Creation, Satan argued the opposite position.<BR/><BR/>What else is the Book of Job except a drama of such a trial?<BR/><BR/>The notion of "G-d versus Satan" slipped into Israelite tradition later--most likely borrowed from the notion of a cosmic battle between good and evil in Zoroastrianism.<BR/><BR/>That Persian religion was carried throughout the Middle East during the conquests by Darius, the same conquests which, among other things, freed the Israelites from Babylonian captivity and returned them to Jerusalem.<BR/><BR/>The same good vs. evil dualism later slipped into ideological Christianity--but I do not believe it was part of Jesus' own belief and teaching.<BR/><BR/>Even in the Gospel of Mark (the earliest of the four in the New Testament), Satan is still more "the Adversary" than the Enemy of G-d.<BR/><BR/>He tests and tempts Jesus in the wilderness, just has he had the fictional Job. In both cases, the one he tests rejects him and stays faithful to G-d...even knowing how much suffering that entails.<BR/><BR/>As to the Garden/Serpent/Eve bit.... My take is similar to David's, where he writes: "the Tree of Knowledge was not about knowing the difference between Good and Evil, but knowing that there was no Good and Evil...."<BR/><BR/>In other lore, the tree and the <I>gift</I> of the apple stand for the ambivalent blessing of human consciousness, the ability to measure and to judge and to choose and to act freely.<BR/><BR/>Needless to say, the Serpent is often Wisdom, or at least the messenger of wisdom, accompanying the female embodiment of wisdom (see the caduceus, the Wand of Hermes with its two snake, or the oracle at Delphi).<BR/><BR/>The catch is that this consciousness is obviously a mixed blessing...precisely because human beings are finite, fallible and mortal.<BR/><BR/>In other words, the first tree is the Tree of Knowledge--but it is dangerous because it can give human beings the <I>illusion</I> of the knowledge of good and evil.<BR/><BR/>We tend to label anything evil which involves suffering or death--or even just not getting our way.<BR/><BR/>Duh!<BR/><BR/>We need to remember that there were <I>two</I> trees in the Garden. The second one was the Tree of (Immortal) Life.<BR/><BR/>My take on the expulsion from the Garden hinges on what G-d says as that expulsion is commanded:<BR/><BR/>"Let's keep them away from the Tree of Life, while they are suffering under this illusion. We don't want them to become immortal in such a screwed up condition. Keep them out until I can figure out how to fix the mess they've made."<BR/><BR/>Or something like that....<BR/><BR/>Blessèd Be,<BR/>Michael Bright CrowAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-70558499000040347572008-04-26T13:13:00.000-04:002008-04-26T13:13:00.000-04:00Hi Cat,"pure as a Norwegian bachelor farmer" comes...Hi Cat,<BR/>"pure as a Norwegian bachelor farmer" comes from A Prairie Home Companion:-) <BR/><BR/>david<BR/>/|\Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-12147194903060357072008-04-26T09:20:00.000-04:002008-04-26T09:20:00.000-04:00Hi, cubbie! It's great to have your feedback on m...Hi, cubbie! It's great to have your feedback on my blog; I'm a constant reader of yours, and I don't know if there's a blog out there that so consistently speaks to my heart, so I'm really happy to find your words here. :)<BR/><BR/>It's as a teaching tool--a symbol, a metaphor, that captures some truths and (unfortunately) obscures others--that I've always seen duality.<BR/><BR/>David--"Pure as a Norwegian bachelor farmer," eh? That's a comparison that hasn't been made before. (I tend to think of myself more as a <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanny_Ogg" REL="nofollow">Nanny Ogg</A>, personally... though she, too, is fairly incorruptible; albeit more from being already pretty corrupt to begin with. Hmmm...)<BR/><BR/>I agree that the essence of Pagan dualism is in the coming together. And I further agree that in the minds of most of the world's fundamentalist Christians, Satan and their God do no such thing, but, yes, are locked in an eternal combat. I would see that as an example of the pitfalls of taking duality too literally. <BR/><BR/>The payoff can be incidents like the one I experienced at my twenty-fifth high school reunion, when two formerly close friends, having learned I was Wiccan, played musical chairs to avoid sitting near me during the evening. I was initially disappointed somehow not to have had their company, and then, when someone told me the backstory, even sadder. Not only did they (and I) miss out on reuniting with an old friend, but what does this say about how dull their lives must be, that they need to invent all-powerful figures of evil from old friends?<BR/><BR/>Dualism, taken literally, and particularly cast in terms of good and evil, can make you stupid. I'm afraid I agree with you on that.<BR/><BR/>So why didn't I address that in my initial essay? Hmmm. I think probably because the only place I have for dualism in my theology is the Pagan view. I really don't know how Quakers see the whole God vs. Satan knockdown thing. Or rather, I know that the Friends I am closest to, the Liberal Friends who accept me as one of them, seem to see that in metaphoric ways, as internal to each person, or do not consider it at all.<BR/><BR/>It is probably taken far more seriously by some and in some quarters. But it's so alien to me--far more alien than monotheism--or, more accurately, a kind of <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism#Teachings" REL="nofollow">Neo-Platonist monism</A>, which is as close to that concept as I can find myself standing. It's alien enough that I do not really see it at all. <BR/><BR/>So, to be honest, I didn't write about the battle to the death between personified Good and personified Evil because I didn't even think about it. It's a blind spot I'm happy to cultivate, because I agree with you that it does not lead to fortunate ways of seeing the universe; in fact, I think it makes us blind far more than it allows us to see. <BR/><BR/>I say this, aware that one criticism made of Liberal Friends, as of Pagans, is the lack of acknowledgment of evil in the world. I say it, also, as a woman who worked for many years among survivors of sexual abuse and domestic violence, and among the surviving friends and family of homicide victims. I do not say it lightly, in other words: I see no place in religious thought for a principle of ultimate evil, and I see nothing positive to be gained in looking for one.Cat C-B (and/or Peter B)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-75653655555952241562008-04-25T22:36:00.000-04:002008-04-25T22:36:00.000-04:00The whole dichotomy thing is just so false - as th...The whole dichotomy thing is just so false - as though anything in the world is one thing or another unmixed.<BR/>As for gender - as far as I can tell there are 3 separate dimensions of gender - genetics, morphology and self-image. A surprising number of people are not consistent on three out of three - and thats not even taking into account shades of gray within each dimension.<BR/>I am going to disagree with you concerning your statement "Duality is merely a symbol, in other words, for many-ness, variation, and diversity." I'm not going to disagree with your personal view which I think is at least as pure as a Norwegian bachelor farmer. But, the pagan world view is not about right and wrong and black and white and neither is your Quaker world view. The wiccan world view is that the God and the Goddess complete the world together and that is a powerful positive duality. Jehovah and Satan do not complete the world together - in the end one of them will extirpate the other and that is a hugely destructive duality since it begs for categorizing everything in terms of that conflict. (kabbala aside)<BR/>It comes down to intention. Heal the world by acknowledging, honoring and respecting our differences or support the right side of a multi-millenia conflict. Marshall's two Powers on one hand, and your inclusiveness (and Marshall's emulation of the Lamb) on the other. <BR/>You can handle the monotheistic snake and it does not harm you - perhaps you can see the snake has its own destiny and beauty and its place in the world and maybe Eve saw that too. But for most people, the monotheistic engine is a way of separating the world into Good and Evil and Right and Wrong and the snake and Eve take it on the chin every time. Frankly, I think (with no factual basis whatsoever) that the Tree of Knowledge was not about knowing the difference between Good and Evil, but knowing that there was no Good and Evil -that we can know the beauty of this world and all of its inhabitants - respecting their destinies even when we can't fully understand them. <BR/>david<BR/>/|\Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-12066790195594233182008-04-25T22:01:00.000-04:002008-04-25T22:01:00.000-04:00i like this. duality scares the crap out of me, b...i like this. duality scares the crap out of me, but i think it touches some truths and can be a good teaching tool. but yeah... the literalness gets overdone and can be really really problemating.cubbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01967417546891684102noreply@blogger.com