tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post8151719298584835676..comments2023-10-05T06:20:40.173-04:00Comments on Quaker Pagan Reflections: Coming home to NEYM (Peter)Cat C-B (and/or Peter B)http://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-12446314677625258212007-08-18T07:58:00.000-04:002007-08-18T07:58:00.000-04:00James Riemermann wrote, "...without having any rea...James Riemermann wrote, "<I>...without having any real understanding of Kenyan culture, I would nonetheless suppose that extreme anti-gay sentiments predate AIDS in Kenya by, well, milennia.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Without having any real understanding of Kenyan culture, I think this is an unsafe — and potentially hurtful — supposition.<BR/><BR/>There have been cultures the world over in which there was/is <I>no</I> anti-gay sentiment — for example, classical Greek and Roman cultures, and for example, many native American cultures. In the absence of hard evidence one way or the other, we have no grounds for supposing that the particular East African tribes that converted to Quakerism have a heritage that leaned anti-gay before recent times.<BR/><BR/>The fair thing to do is not to prejudge but to wait with an open mind for solid evidence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-53598624019005039672007-08-16T17:33:00.000-04:002007-08-16T17:33:00.000-04:00This is just a post for the convenience of those ...This is just a post for the convenience of those who might be interested in clicking through directly to Claire's blog, <A HREF="http://godthat.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">That God</A> to read <A HREF="http://godthat.blogspot.com/2007/08/fum-neym-some-queries.html" REL="nofollow">her queries</A> on the subject of coming to greater clarity around NEYM's relationship with FUM.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for posting, Claire!Cat C-B (and/or Peter B)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-58158748531997810592007-08-16T15:51:00.000-04:002007-08-16T15:51:00.000-04:00Hi Peter and Friends,This is a very important conv...Hi Peter and Friends,<BR/><BR/>This is a very important conversation and I am glad to see it happening. (Hopefully it is happening in person in many places, as well.) As I read this post and the comments to it, I felt the need to lift up some guiding queries. However, I feel also that it is important to give these queries adequate space for consideration, and that it would be best if they were in a separate post rather than a comment to a post. <BR/><BR/>As a result I have posted them on my blog over at http://godthat.blogspot.com, providing a touch of context and then presenting the queries there. I do not mean to steer conversation away from the space this post provides as what is happening here is important. I am rather hoping to open up additional space for more considerations.<BR/><BR/>I offer these queries as objectively as possible and hope that Friends may consider them or add to them if so led.<BR/><BR/>much love to all,<BR/>ClaireClairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09444739666098556760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-8438151506241268962007-08-16T15:49:00.000-04:002007-08-16T15:49:00.000-04:00I am sure AIDS has played a factor in ramping up a...I am sure AIDS has played a factor in ramping up anti-gay feelings in Kenya and elsewhere. But, without having any real understanding of Kenyan culture, I would nonetheless suppose that extreme anti-gay sentiments predate AIDS in Kenya by, well, milennia. As they have in most of the world. This is a powerful and ancient bias. And I suspect such bigotry emerged in the Bible because it was already in people's hearts and mouths, more than vice-versa.<BR/><BR/>Human beings have never needed much of an excuse to vilify anyone who is different. The challenge is turning that very human tendency around.James Riemermannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00785078588562735749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-9329729139034525562007-08-12T22:05:00.000-04:002007-08-12T22:05:00.000-04:00Hi everyone,I think Marshall and Peter are right t...Hi everyone,<BR/>I think Marshall and Peter are right to challenge my initial comment; I wrote that at a point during NEYM when I was feeling particularly pessimistic about the biblicality of NEYM, which seemed more than I remember. (Perhaps it's just that I've changed.) <BR/><BR/>In any case, yes, I'm sure AIDS is a real factor, and I think Peter's right that homophobia (which as Michael points out is closely related to misogyny) is most of what it's about.<BR/><BR/>But my point -- crudely stated in terms of percentages, which probably aren't a helpful concept here -- is just that they won't be able to change until they learn to regard the Bible less highly than they do now. Pace Marshall, the Christian groups who are pro-LGBT are precisely those who take a looser approach to scripture, with few exceptions.<BR/><BR/>Garden-variety homophobia can be overcome by education, increased experience, etc., which is just what is relevant in the case of the association with AIDS. But when there's a sacred text involved pushing in the opposite direction, it raises the bar considerably. A nonbeliever need only be educated to the point where they feel, on balance, that discrimination is probably wrong. But a traditional monotheist has to be convinced so thoroughly that it is wrong that they are willing to take a step back from the Bible/Qu'ran. Which takes a lot longer.Zach Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03081152597455627366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-49174782589409826752007-08-11T21:37:00.000-04:002007-08-11T21:37:00.000-04:00Peter,I was a fellow participant in the Grace's wo...Peter,<BR/><BR/>I was a fellow participant in the Grace's workshop -- so glad to read your reflections! I think you capture the feeling of the sessions very well. And I think your analysis of the FUM situation is right on, too.<BR/><BR/>As I mentioned in the workshop, I'm a war-tax resister, and your comment about economic boycott says about power what I got inarticulate about that day in the workshop.<BR/><BR/>Here in the U.S., too, I think that remaining connected to FUM might actually send a more powerful message: if we disconnect, they can write us off as deluded, but instead we keep sending the message, "we are like you, we are similar, and you're *wrong* in your exclusionary stance."<BR/><BR/>The thing is, there are LBGTQ folks (and queer-positive folks) out there in those other FUM yearly meetings. We're like a lifeline to them. And yet I know that it's still painful for the LBGTQ & allies among us here in NEYM. It's morally messy. Being really inclusive of everyone leaves one with some contradictions, perhaps, that we can transcend only by accessing the deep spiritual mojo. Arrgh.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the loving post.<BR/><BR/>FrederickFrederickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12817627491361603340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-227500898878455342007-08-11T11:34:00.000-04:002007-08-11T11:34:00.000-04:00Peter,You write: "I think that the biggest thing d...Peter,<BR/><BR/>You write: "I think that the biggest thing driving homophobia in our society is our discomfort with the raw power of sex as a disruptive force in our individual lives and in our society."<BR/><BR/>I agree. This is what my spouse Jim, in his inimitable way, calls "the yuck factor."<BR/><BR/>However, there is another, millenia-deep underpinning for homophobia in much of the world: the deep-rooted misogyny of patriarchal cultures.<BR/><BR/>Almost anywhere that you find a culture which traditionally denigrates women, you find a collateral denigration of "men who act like women" or "men who take the woman's role in sex."<BR/><BR/>In other words, homophobia is special case of misogyny.<BR/><BR/>Blessed Be,<BR/>MichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-71773963296050910872007-08-09T11:02:00.000-04:002007-08-09T11:02:00.000-04:00I didn't mean to suggest in my post that there are...I didn't mean to suggest in my post that there are "good reasons for their prejudice on this issue." (Thank you, Zach, for pointing out where I was unclear.) What I am saying is that if we, as outsiders, muscle into a culture we do not respect or seek to understand in order to correct very real evils there, we run the risk of causing more harm than good. Look at Iraq: Saddam Hussein was a genocidal despot, and it was easy for a lot of Americans to believe that by removing him, we were correcting an evil. And they weren’t wrong. Even without WMD's, he was a bad dude and logically the world ought to be a better place without him. The fact that it isn’t shows what happens when we think locally and act globally.<BR/><BR/>I also don’t agree that anti-gay sentiment among Christians comes primarily from a belief in Biblical inerrancy. Sure, the Bible gets used a lot to justify hatred and oppression of gays and lesbians, but the Bible is also very clear in its condemnation of blended fabrics (Leviticus 19:19) and nobody really cares about that. I don’t think it’s primarily about AIDS, either. I cannot speak for African society, but in America I have seen the AIDS epidemic force the gay community to take itself seriously in ways that have increased their political muscle and won them a good deal more respect from mainstream society than they had thirty years ago. Homophobia is much older and runs much deeper than our fear of AIDS, at least in America.<BR/><BR/>I think that the biggest thing driving homophobia in our society is our discomfort with the raw power of sex as a disruptive force in our individual lives and in our society. Accepting the humanity and the Godliness—or even the existence—of gays, lesbians, and other queer folk threatens many people’s ideas about the proper place of family and sex and marriage. <BR/><BR/>More on this later.<BR/><BR/>Peter BishopPeter Bishophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01887979339920844774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-35899504006622480122007-08-09T06:43:00.000-04:002007-08-09T06:43:00.000-04:00I can't agree with Zach when he says, "most FUM Fr...I can't agree with Zach when he says, "<I>most FUM Friends and meetings worldwide are anti-LGBT because of their superstitious belief that the book we call the Bible is a message from some kind of cosmic superpower....</I>" After all, there are other Christian groups that have that same "superstitious belief" and yet are not anti-LGBT at all.<BR/><BR/>Most FUM Friends and meetings are in East Africa, in places that have been very hard hit by AIDS. When they have spoken against homosexuality, and against heterosexual activity outside of marriage, they have from time to time made reference to AIDS. I don't, personally, find it hard to guess that the deaths of their own loved ones due to AIDS might be at least as much of a motive behind their stance as the Bible is.<BR/><BR/>Not that I'm saying an anti-LGBT stance is a <I>rational</I> response to AIDS. But humans, when you get right down to it, are not entirely rational creatures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25987874.post-20622183611152257002007-08-09T00:07:00.000-04:002007-08-09T00:07:00.000-04:00Peter,Thanks for writing this report... and for b...Peter,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for writing this report... and for being the ally you are to your GLBTQ brothers and sisters. <BR/><BR/>Interesting times, wouldn't you say?<BR/><BR/>It's late here and I'm tired. But I also feel better about getting re-engaged in the blogosphere after some time doing other [Quaker] things.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>Liz Opp, <A HREF="http://thegoodraisedup.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">The Good Raised Up</A>Liz Opphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09802348848085930901noreply@blogger.com